文化與技術三部曲 · SF-04｜專訪 Joan Grossman

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Yu: Firstly, we, all look, we all watch the documentary, and we feel it is very nice that you tell the story of the Drop City in a very vivid way like because you use very your sound design of the documentary, like because you use very, your, sound design of the documentary is very cute. And you also use clip art?

首先，我們大家都看了這部紀錄片，我們覺得你以非常生動的方式講述了Drop City的故事，這非常棒。你在紀錄片中運用了非常可愛的音效設計。還有，你也使用了剪輯藝術嗎？

Joan: Yeah, the animation, yeah.

Joan: 是的，動畫，是的。

Yu: Is this all made or made by you or, it’s made by other artists or?

Yu: 這些都是你自己做的嗎？還是其他藝術家做的？

Joan: Yeah, I worked so with the animation sequences in the film, I worked with an artist named Michael Krieger. But we work very closely together. So he was very interested in Drop City and we got introduced through a curator, art curator. And He had never done animation before, but I loved his artwork. His artwork has the quality of those animations, you know, it feels very handmade, very, kind of colorful, kind of whimsical, and I thought that his style would be great for Drop City and he wanted to try animation so we We work together to plan out ideas for how he could try some animation sequences. So yeah, so the idea was to kind of just, you know, bring that kind of whimsical playful quality of Drop City to life.

Joan: 是的，我在電影中負責動畫片段的工作，我和一位名叫邁克爾·克里格的藝術家合作。但我們非常密切地合作。他對滴水城非常感興趣，我們是通過一位策展人介紹認識的。他以前從未做過動畫，但我喜歡他的藝術作品。他的作品具有那些動畫的特質，你知道，感覺非常手工製作，色彩豐富，有點奇幻。我認爲他的風格非常適合滴水城，而且他也想嘗試動畫，所以我們一起計劃了一些他可以嘗試動畫片段的想法。所以，是的，我們的想法就是將滴水城那種奇幻、好玩的特質活靈活現地呈現出來。

Yu: Then, Like we wanna know like why you are interested in this topic, like personally why you are interested in Drop City.

Yu: 那麼，我們想知道你爲什麼對這個主題感興趣，就個人而言，爲什麼你對Drop City感興趣。

Joan: Yeah, well, I have a lot of interest in the counterculture. I think, you know, there are always, there are many different kinds of countercultures, but I think that whenever people Do you hear that helicopter?

Joan: 是啊，我對反主流文化很感興趣。我覺得，你知道的，總是有很多不同種類的反主流文化，但我覺得每當人們...你聽到那架直升機了嗎？

Yu: Yep.

Yu: 是的。

Joan: Okay. You hear that it’s loud, right? Okay, yeah, I’ll just pause for a second. It’s super loud right now. Okay. Yeah, so what I was saying is, yeah, I have a lot of interest in the counterculture. I think that the counterculture. Anytime people are questioning authority questioning the status quo, looking for creative ways to live. And to experiment in ways of forming communities and and trying to think you know outside the box. I think it’s it’s a fascinating process and it’s something that I had a lot of interest in for a long time. And so when. So this project in particular came to me through my co producer on the project Tom Report. And he had been friends with some of the people who were in Drop City. And he had tried to write a book about Drop City. But when he was working on his book. There was still a lot of bad feelings between people because of the way it had ended. And so he had given up on the book. People didn’t wanna really talk about it that much. And then. One of the Jeanne Branowski, who’s one of the founders of Drop City, sent him a whole box of images. And he showed them to me and he said. Do you think this would make an interesting film? And I just love the way the buildings looked and I thought, yeah. Yeah. So that’s how it all started. And, you know, and I also really liked the Drop City. I think it really shows the intellectual roots of the counterculture, the experimentation with building. The geometric form. You know, there’s a lot of deep thinking going on there. And I think that was an important story to tell.

Joan: 好的，你聽到很吵，對吧？好的，是的，我會停一下。現在真的很吵。好的，所以我剛纔說的是，是的，我對反主流文化非常感興趣。我認爲反主流文化就是每當人們質疑權威、質疑現狀，尋找創造性的生活方式，嘗試形成社羣並思考超越常規的方式。我認爲這是一個迷人的過程，我長期以來一直對此非常感興趣。所以當這個項目特別通過我的合作製片人湯姆·裏波特傳達給我時，我就接受了。他曾經是一些在“滴水城”（Drop City）的人的朋友。他曾試圖寫一本關於“滴水城”的書。但當他在寫書的時候，人們之間仍然存在很多不愉快的情緒，因爲事情的結局不太好。所以他放棄了這本書。人們不太願意談論這個話題。然後，滴水城的創始人之一瓊·布拉諾夫斯基（Jeanne Branowski）給他寄來了一整箱的照片。他把這些照片給我看，並問我：“你覺得這能拍成一部有趣的電影嗎？” 我就是喜歡建築物的樣子，然後我想，是的。是的。就是這樣開始的。而且，你知道的，我也非常喜歡Drop City。我覺得它真正展示了反主流文化的知識根源，以及對建築的實驗。幾何形式。你知道的，那裏有很多深思熟慮的事情。我認爲這是一個重要的故事要講述。

Yu: Yeah. Yes. And actually the next question is about the social culture factors that lead to the creation of the drop city like in your view like what makes it happen especially in under the sixties counterculture movements.

Yu: 是的。是的。實際上，下一個問題是關於社會文化因素，導致像你所說的Drop city 的產生，你認爲是什麼原因造成了這種情況，尤其是在六十年代的反文化運動中。

Joan: Yeah. Well, I think there were, you know, a lot of things. One was the Vietnam War. Yeah. A lot of young people we’re protesting war. They felt the war was not justified that too many people were dying and there wasn’t a clear path forward in the war. So, so that was one of the Sort of cultural circumstances, I think that spurred the counterculture. I think another thing was. It was the post World War 2 era. And in the United States that was a very materialistic era. I mean, people in after World War 2, people were very understandably happy, you know, the war was over. And there was a big boom of suburban living, people moving out of the city into the suburbs. And there was just a lot of, you know, materialism, people buying stuff, you know, to fill bigger houses than people had in the cities. And I think for a lot of young people, they were questioning what is this materialism? Does it make us happy? Is it what life is all about? Or other other ways of conceiving a meaningful lives.

Joan: 是的。嗯，我想有很多原因。其中一個是越南戰爭。是的，很多年輕人都在抗議戰爭。他們覺得這場戰爭沒有正當理由，太多人死亡，而且在戰爭中沒有明確的前進道路。所以，這是一個促使反文化運動出現的文化背景之一。我認爲另一個原因是二戰後的時代。在美國，那是一個非常物質主義的時代。我是說，二戰結束後，人們非常理所當然地感到高興，你知道，戰爭結束了。郊區生活蓬勃發展，人們從城市搬到了郊區。人們買了很多東西，填滿了比城市裏的房子更大的房子。我認爲對於很多年輕人來說，他們在質疑這種物質主義。它能讓我們快樂嗎？這就是生活的全部嗎？還是還有其他方式來理解有意義的生活。

Yu: Okay. Then, I’ll just move to the third question. It’s about the Dom. Like we all know like Fuller as visionary idea influence the on design and philosophy of the gym geodesic domes at the Drop city. And the, we see that the, that everyone can architect is kind of a little bit close to the sort of decentralization that people especially in the technology area, working for the counterculture movement, they’re both maybe some kind of believe in this idea. We’re just curious about like how was the commune, of the drop city embrace this kind of things. Are they, or are they embracing or rejecting various technological advancement?

Yu: 好的，那我們就繼續談第三個問題吧。這個問題是關於圓頂建築。我們都知道，Fuller 作爲一個具有遠見的理念對Drop City的圓頂建築的設計和理念產生了影響。我們也看到，每個建築師都有一種對分散化的傾向，特別是在科技領域工作的人，他們或多或少都相信這個理念。我們只是好奇Drop City的共同體是如何接受這種理念的。他們是接受還是拒絕各種科技進步呢？

Joan: Yeah. Okay. I think, you know, if If personal computers had existed when Drop City was it active? I think they would have loved personal computers. And I think if you have you talked to Fred Turner at Stanford.

Joan: 是的。好的。我想，你知道的，如果當Drop City還活躍的時候，個人計算機存在的話？我想他們一定會喜歡個人計算機的。而且，如果你有和史丹佛大學的弗雷德·特納交談過的話。

Yu: Yeah.

Yu: 是的。

Joan: Okay, great. You know, so this whole connection between counterculture and cyber culture, I think he does a great job of sort of drawing that line. You know if drop city they were using the technology they had so Buckminster Fuller was a real influence to the counterculture in general because Buckminster Fuller was saying, How can we use the least amount of resources to serve the most number of people. So how can you be as resourceful as possible? So the geodesic dome is structure that uses the least amount of materials for the most amount of space. So it was experimenting. You know, Buckminster Fuller was an engineer and he was experimenting with how do you So he was experimenting with. How do you, how do you serve humanity? In a way that can be fair, that can protect the natural resources of the earth, you know, how can you do these things from an engineering point of view? And he was hugely influential. He would do these talks that have gone for hours and hours and hours and people at Drop City. He was doing that in Colorado where drop city was. And so this was this was highly influential.

Joan: 好的，太棒了。你知道，反文化和網絡文化之間的這種聯繫，我覺得他在畫出這條線上做得很好。你知道，如果在Drop City，他們使用了他們所擁有的技術，所以巴克明斯特·富勒對整個反文化運動有着很大的影響。因爲巴克明斯特·富勒說過，我們如何用最少的資源爲最多的人服務。所以你要儘可能地善於利用資源。幾何圓頂是一種利用最少材料獲得最大空間的結構。所以這是一種實驗。你知道，巴克明斯特·富勒是一位工程師，他在實驗如何，如何爲人類服務。以一種公平的方式，保護地球的自然資源，你知道，你如何從工程的角度來做這些事情？他的影響力非常大。他會進行長達數小時的演講，而Drop City的人們也會參加。他在Drop Ciyt所在的科羅拉多州進行了這些演講。所以這對他們產生了很大的影響。

So as far as technology goes, you know, there were no personal computers. But you know, the notion I think of the counterculture. That is so connected to. Technology, like, decentralized technology. The idea how do we share kind of connects form community. Have ways of sharing knowledge and through that, how do we Live, live a better life, you know, so that I think is was really at the heart of the counterculture and it’s why. As Fred Turner has written about why Stuart Brand the whole earth catalog, you know, there was some influence there. The Drop City helped to kind of, you know, some overlap there. This idea of we’re experimenting with building domes and building other kinds of geometric buildings. What can we learn from other people? What can we share with our knowledge? You know, as you saw in the film. There was the "Dome Cookbook" that. His name is losing his name in the map. There was the dumb cookbook, you know, which was a way to help people do this. It wasn’t this idea that we invented this so nobody else should do it. It’s definitely this idea that These are ideas that need to be shared, that need to be built on. So yes, I think in terms of what you know the original thinking behind the internet is and the whole cyberculture of we can share knowledge we can share in this huge sphere of communication. You know, is very much is part of what we thinking it drop city and even though they didn’t have high tech. They used what they had to do some, you know, those domes are technology, right? A dome is a form of technology. And you know they would they were doing some things with you know, they were they had the theater dome and they were, you know. Having events in there and they were really in a low tech way, we’re definitely interested in technology. And interested in the ideas you know that come from building a structure that’s geometric, you know, geometric. I’m thinking something I learned making Drop City has a lot to do with what are the structures of the universe, you know, these these forms, you know, what are the structures of the universe? That’s why I say, there’s a lot of intellectual deep thinking going on about how we built all those things.

就科技而言，你知道，那時還沒有個人電腦。但你知道，我認爲與反主流文化有關的概念與技術息息相關，就像分佈式技術一樣。這個想法是如何分享，以形成社羣。通過這種方式，我們如何過上更好的生活，你知道，我認爲這真的是反主流文化的核心所在，這也是爲什麼弗雷德·特納寫到爲什麼斯圖爾特·布蘭德的《全球概覽》有一些影響力。Drop City也在某種程度上有所重疊。這個想法是我們正在嘗試建造圓頂和其他幾何建築，我們可以從他人那裏學到什麼？我們可以用我們的知識分享什麼？你知道，正如你在電影中看到的那樣。有一個叫做“圓頂烹飪書”的東西。他的名字在我腦海中失去了。有一個叫做“圓頂烹飪書”的東西，這是幫助人們做到這一點的一種方式。這不是我們發明了這個，所以其他人不應該做。而是這個想法，這些是需要分享的想法，需要進一步發展的想法。 所以，是的，我認爲就你所知道的互聯網的原始思想和整個網絡文化來說，我們可以分享知識，可以在這個巨大的溝通領域中分享。你知道，這在很大程度上是我們認爲的落地城市的一部分，即使他們沒有高科技。他們利用手頭的資源做了一些事情，你知道，那些圓頂就是技術，對吧？圓頂是一種技術形式。而且你知道，他們在做一些事情，他們有劇院圓頂，他們在那裏舉辦活動，他們確實以一種低科技的方式對技術非常感興趣。他們對從構建幾何結構中產生的思想也很感興趣，你知道，幾何結構。我在製作Drop City時學到的一些東西與宇宙的結構有很大關係，你知道，這些形式，你知道，宇宙的結構是什麼？這就是爲什麼我說，我們在如何建造所有這些東西方面進行了很多深入的思考。

Yu: The next question is, about, gender and collective living. How did the counterculture movement’s broader discussions about gender and liberation impact the Drop City?

Yu：下一個問題是關於性別和集體生活。反文化運動對性別和解放的廣泛討論如何影響了“Drop City”？

Joan: Well. Yeah. The counterculture I would say by and large. Did not have a very developed say women’s rights of gender. It was, you know, that came a little later. And so as you see in the film, you know the women were still managing a lot of the traditional roles. You know, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the children. So there is definitely. You know, not not the kind of thinking we have on gender now. And there’s there’s actually been a lot of critique of the counterculture in that respect. You know how women were not. hadn’t really been embraced. For their intellectual strength as much as, you know, the men were more. Sort of. I would say involved in steering sort of the development of drop city in some ways. On the other hand, I would say there was the. Some of the women who were at Drop City. Very strong women, you know, who who did definitely participated in the thinking of what was Drop City. But yeah, the women’s movement, you know, and and even more recently, movements that really are questioning how the express gender, how we respect people of different gender identities, all that, you know, that’s that came later. The women’s movement really in the United States flourished. More in the 1970s after Drop City.

喬安：嗯，是的。我會說反文化在很大程度上並沒有很發展女性權益或性別平等的觀念。這些觀念稍後纔出現。所以正如你在電影中看到的，女性仍然在扮演許多傳統角色，比如烹飪、清潔和照顧孩子。所以在性別觀念方面，當時的思維與現在有很大不同。事實上，對於反文化在這方面的批評也很多。女性並沒有真正被認可其智力的強大，而男性在某種程度上更多地參與了Drop City的發展。另一方面，我要說的是，Drop City中有一些非常堅強的女性，她們絕對參與了Drop City的思考。但是女性運動，以及最近更多關於性別表達和尊重不同性別身份的運動，這些都是稍後纔出現的。 女性運動在美國真的蓬勃發展。尤其是在1970年代，Drop City之後更是如此。

Yu: Like are they, Like, because we are talking about collective living, like in the day-to-day life, our women, for example, if women in a drop city, if a family in a drop city they have a children, then will Women from other families helping the women from this family like raise their children together or something like that.

YU：因爲我們在談論集體生活，就像在日常生活中，我們的女性，例如，如果在一個Drop City的女性，如果一個家庭在Drop City 有一個孩子，那麼其他家庭的女性會幫助這個家庭的女性一起撫養他們的孩子之類的。

Joan: Well, you know, Drop City wasn’t that big? So I think in the most people who ever lived there was maybe around you know 20 something people at one time actually living there. But no, they were really, you know, in terms of family and gender. I would say, and this comes out in the film too. That it was a little more traditional. You know, families had their own dome. And live together. But of course the children, you know, interacted and it was not a traditional living situation so there was certainly a lot of interaction among you know if you lived at Drop City as a child. You know, you had all these people around you doing all these creative things so it wasn’t a typical, you know, family situation. But at the same time. I mean, there have been other communities, you know, that were much more experimental, like the children are gonna get all live together in one building and then people are going to. Or people who will watch the children and take turns doing that. So it wasn’t. Really wasn’t like that so much in Drop City.

喬安：嗯，你知道，Drop City並不大。所以我認爲在那裏居住的人數最多可能只有20多個人，你知道，同一時間實際上居住在那裏的人。但是，不，他們在家庭和性別方面真的是，你知道，有點傳統。我會說，這也在電影中體現出來。家庭有自己的圓頂屋，一起生活。但是當然，孩子們，你知道，互相交往，這不是一個傳統的居住環境，所以如果你是Drop City的孩子，你肯定會與周圍的人有很多互動，他們都在做一些創意的事情，所以這不是一個典型的，你知道，家庭環境。但與此同時，我是說，還有其他小區，你知道，更加實驗性的，比如孩子們都住在一棟建築物裏，然後人們會輪流照顧孩子。所以在Drop City並不是這樣的情況。

Yu: So the next question is about like dissolution and legacy. Like, can you detail the factor that eventually led to the decline of drop city as a commune. As we see in a few afterwards even somebody still want to try to build a drop city up but nobody wants to help.

YU：那麼下一個問題是關於解散和遺產的。就像，你能詳細說明導致德羅普城作爲一個公社衰落的因素嗎？正如我們在之後的一些情況中看到的，即使有人仍然想嘗試重建Drop City，但沒有人願意幫助。

Joan: Yeah, you know, There’s different thinking about why drops city. Didn’t survive. So some of the people at drop city. Thought it was because they didn’t really have a source of income. You know, they were living on this rocky, dry land. They couldn’t really grow food. They were not really that money minded, so they didn’t really say you know some communities develop small businesses to survive, you know, that kind of thing. And they weren’t really oriented toward that. You know, they were very young when they found a drop city, probably your age. You know, they were very young and they were somewhat naive, And I think, you know, they became really kind of impoverished. So that was one factor. And there were people after living there for several years who just said, Okay, I’m ready for a little more comfort, little more. Maybe a little more of a dynamic. Or a different kind of social structure where you’re not with the same people day in day out, you know, so having a going into larger communities or larger places. So that was the That was an effect.

Joan: 是的，你知道，對於爲什麼Drop City會消失，人們有不同的看法。有些人認爲是因爲他們沒有穩定的收入來源。你知道，他們生活在這片崎嶇乾燥的土地上，無法種植食物。他們並不是那麼注重金錢，所以他們沒有像其他小區一樣開展小生意來維持生計，你知道，那種事情。而且他們並不是以此爲目標。你知道，他們在發現Drop City時非常年輕，可能和你一樣大。他們非常年輕，有些天真，我認爲他們變得非常貧困。這是一個因素。還有一些人在那裏生活了幾年後，就說：好了，我想要更多的舒適，更多的活力。或者一種不同的社會結構，不是每天都和同樣的人在一起，你知道，所以他們選擇進入更大的小區或地方。這就是那種影響。

And then there are also people. A drop city who really believe that. The drop city got too much publicity. So there was a point where Drop City got discovered and it was in, it was featured in all kinds of publications. And then all these young people were going to California, which was kind of the real, where the counterculture was starting to really slow. And. And they would stop by, drop city, they’d read about it in the alternative press. And so you had a lot of people who were kind of like slackers, you know, they’re just hanging out and they just want to be at Drop City and get high and just be there. And, you know, it takes a lot of work to sustain a community. And it takes, and to feed a community.

然後還有人。有些人真的相信這一點。這個Drop City得到了太多的宣傳。所以有一個時刻，Drop City被發現了，它在各種出版物中都有出現。然後所有這些年輕人都去加利福尼亞，那裏是真正的反文化開始蓬勃發展的地方。他們會順道去Drop City，他們在另類媒體中讀到了它的消息。所以有很多人就像懶散者一樣，他們只是閒着，只想待在Drop City，嗑藥，只想在那裏。你知道，維持一個小區需要很多工作。還需要餵養一個小區。

So. So there are people who really think. It was destroyed by too much publicity. And then it was very close to a highway. And so people, it was very easy to get to. And you know what’s interesting, there’s another community we feature in the film Dean Fleming, was one of the founders of a community called Libra, which is not far from Drop City, but it’s way up in the hills. You have to go on this long dirt road. It’s not easy to get to. It’s not the kind of place you would just find easily. So, you know, they took a lot of lessons from Drop City. It’s very interesting, you know, like one of the things they learned was You need to have some money to survive. And so you know, a lot of people who live at Some of them have other jobs, some of them are successful artists, they’ve been able to. generate income that way. They also learned you need to be in a more remote locations so that you’re not just you know, people don’t just think they can stop by and stay whenever they want. So, you know, they there were lessons learned. And what’s interesting about Drop City is it was it was one of the early rural communes. So. You know, people learn people you know there’s like you you were mentioned in the notes you sent me about some of the other communities that have continue to develop, you know, I think people want. On some level, some people. You know, there’s a there’s still this urge that some people had to like how can we share resources. How can we? In a collective way have some kind of community. That. Isn’t just the same as every other neighborhood, you know, you know, so there’s so that, you know, the desire still exist.

所以。所以有些人真的認爲。它被過多的宣傳毀了。然後它離高速公路很近。所以人們很容易到達那裏。你知道有趣的是，在電影中我們還展示了另一個社區，迪恩·弗萊明是一個名叫自由社區的創始人之一，它離Drop City不遠，但是在山上。你必須走一條長長的土路才能到達那裏。這並不容易。它不是那種你可以輕易找到的地方。所以，你知道，他們從Drop City學到了很多東西。非常有趣。你知道，其中一件事是你需要一些錢來生存。所以，很多人住在那裏，他們有其他的工作，一些人是成功的藝術家，他們能夠通過這種方式創造收入。他們還學到了需要選擇更偏遠的地點，這樣人們就不會認爲他們可以隨時過來住。所以，你知道，他們學到了很多東西。Drop City有趣的地方是它是早期的農村公社之一。所以，人們學習人們，你知道有些人你認識，你在給我發的筆記中提到了一些其他社區的發展，你知道，我覺得人們想要。在某種程度上，有些人。有些人仍然有這種渴望，想知道我們如何共享資源。我們如何以一種集體的方式擁有某種社區。那。不僅僅是和其他社區一樣，你知道，所以這樣，這種願望仍然存在。

Yu: Okay. Talking about money, I am curious. Is there any financial system or in a drop city. Or, it is absolutely like totally not like it is totally random.

YU：好的。說到錢，我很好奇。在Drop City，有沒有金融系統呢？還是說，完全沒有，就像完全是隨機的？

Joan: Well, you know, they tried to. You know, I think they tried on some level to reject money, like we don’t need money. Or we don’t need our own individual money. So there was this idea of. If you join drop city. Everything you have you share. Everything we have we share. And that didn’t work for everybody. You know, in terms of, how do you manage, you know, that, that’s. That’s a difficult thing to manage. But yeah, in terms of money, they pooled resources for groceries. Some people had took on some part time jobs in town. They sold things, they sold artwork, they sold things they made, you know, so there were these kind of they also you know drop city became a real topic of interest and so they did events. They went to universities, they went to museums, and they would give talks about drop city. And that generated some income too. But it was always, you know. Very bare bones financially. You know, it was not, you know, and that’s that that’s why I’m saying that’s one of the reasons. Yeah, it was hard to sustain.

Joan: 嗯，你知道，他們試過。我覺得他們在某種程度上試圖拒絕金錢，就像我們不需要錢。或者我們不需要自己的個人財富。所以有這樣一個想法，如果你加入Drop City，你擁有的一切都是共享的。我們擁有的一切都是共享的。但這對每個人來說都不適用。你知道，在管理方面，這是一個困難的事情。但是，就金錢而言，他們集中資源購買食品。有些人在城裏找了一些兼職工作。他們賣東西，賣藝術品，賣自己製作的東西，你知道，他們也去了大學，去了博物館，講述Drop City的故事。這也帶來了一些收入。但是，財務上一直都很簡陋。你知道，這就是我說的原因之一，這很難維持下去。

Ray: And I’m also wondering, is there any decision making system in drop city? Did they vote for something?

雷：我也在想，Drop City 有沒有任何決策系統？他們有投票過嗎？

They did, you know, they had this idea of, consensus, you know, it was non hierarchical. So they didn’t have somebody who was the leader, the official leader of Drop City. And so decisions were made. Everybody gets together, let’s make a decision. And that also, you know, can be a difficult process. If there’s no hierarchy, nobody has final say. You know, that can get messy. And so yeah, they struck. I think they struggled with some of that. You know, and and especially when it got to the point of you know, as you see in the film, this idea of having a festival there and which brought in many, many people. You know, there were people who said, We don’t want that and that caused dig. Split where some of the original drop city people left and said that’s not what we want. We want a home. We don’t want this big cultural site to be drop city. So decision making I think was difficult. And when it comes to big decisions.

他們有這個共識的想法，你知道的，它是非等級的。所以他們沒有一個官方領導人。所以決策是由大家一起做的。大家聚在一起，一起做決定。這也可能是一個困難的過程。如果沒有等級制度，沒有人有最終決定權。你知道的，這可能會變得混亂。所以是的，他們遇到了一些困難。尤其是當它發展到像你在電影中看到的那樣，有一個在那裏舉辦節日的想法，這吸引了很多人。有人說，我們不想要那個，這引起了分歧。一些最初的Drop City的人離開了，他們說這不是我們想要的。我們想要一個家。我們不想要這個大型文化場所成爲Drop City。所以我認爲做決策是困難的。尤其是對於重大的決策。

Yu: Okay. So actually we have a like we came out with a new question. And the question is, how do you think about dropper of the sixties?

Yu: 好的。實際上我們有一個新的問題。問題是，你對六十年代的Dropper有什麼看法？

Joan: Yeah. Yeah. I think the drop art is just is a wonderful kind of philosophy of drop city. That was the idea that Art can be anywhere. And art can be a part of your everyday life. You know, it can be something that. Shows up unexpectedly, you know, so they did this thing where they would paint rocks and kind of drop them onto the street. And it would just be something that. Anybody could could see you know anybody could just walk by and So I think as a philosophy, you know, and I think in terms of building the domes or, in terms of. Trying to merge art with life. That was kind of at the core of what, what drop art was that, art can drop into your life in all kinds of ways. So yeah, I think that is a really inspiring part of Drop City for me. In fact, it’s interesting in my neighborhood. I live in New York and few years ago, people started painting rocks on the street. And so around the trees, sometimes, you know, you see these like a rock and it’s been painted and of course it reminds me of across drop city. It’s also it’s it’s very that’s kind of delightful you know just to walk down the street and there’s a painted rock and it’s just part of It’s just there in the environment. So I think drop, you know, drop art was. You know, really key to the thinking of what Drop City could be. A place where this creative process. Was really driving a community and you know or even just that idea of putting a breakfast. A street corner, you know, in front of a hotel. And then just watching how people react to it. You know, I think what they were interested in is So it’s art in the sense of people who walk by and see this strange breakfast on the street. But it’s also art people who made it because then they see a kind of performance in terms of how do people react to this thing. So it’s kind of, you know. Mix the role of where our art originates and who experiences it. You know, they’re really playing those concepts.

Joan: 是的。是的。我認爲Drop Art只是Drop City一種美妙的哲學。這個想法是藝術可以存在於任何地方。藝術可以成爲你日常生活的一部分。你知道，它可以是一種出乎意料的出現，你知道，所以他們做了這樣一件事，他們會把石頭塗上顏料，然後扔到街上。這只是一種任何人都能看到的東西，任何人都可以經過。所以我認爲作爲一種哲學，你知道，在建造圓頂或者在將藝術與生活融合方面，這是Drop City的核心，藝術可以以各種方式融入你的生活。所以是的，我認爲這對我來說是Drop City中一個非常鼓舞人心的部分。事實上，在我所居住的社區，紐約，幾年前，人們開始在街上塗畫石頭。所以在樹旁邊，有時候，你會看到這些塗了顏料的石頭，當然這讓我想起了Drop City。這也是非常令人愉快的，你知道，只需走在街上，就會看到一塊塗了顏料的石頭，它就是環境的一部分，就在那裏。 所以我認爲，你知道，放棄藝術是很重要的。你知道，對於Drop City的思考來說是至關重要的。一個地方，這個創造過程真正推動着一個社區，你知道，甚至只是把早餐放在街角，你知道，在酒店前面。然後只是觀察人們對此的反應。你知道，我認爲他們感興趣的是，這是一種藝術，因爲路過的人看到了街上的奇怪早餐。但它也是一種藝術，因爲製作它的人看到了一種表演，即人們對這件事的反應如何。所以，你知道，它混合了我們的藝術起源和體驗者的角色。他們真的在玩弄這些概念。

Yu: Okay. And also, we are curious about like where is the people who was live in the drop city are they still working for the working for a community working for a career about community or are they just simply move on and continue their life and whatever.

Yu: 好的。而且，我們也很好奇，那些曾經住在Drop City的人現在是繼續爲社區工作，還是隻是簡單地繼續他們的生活，做自己想做的事情。

Joan: Well, at this point, you know, they’re pretty old. And several people who are in the film have died since the film was made. But you know what was that actually I’m glad you asked that because. One of the things I was really impressed by when I met the people from Drop City before we made the film. Is that they all lived very creative lives after Drop City. I mean, some of them spent time in other communities, other types of collective communities. But they all did interesting things. Gene Bernowski made films about the environment and was really very to this day very active and telling stories about exploitation of the environment. Some of them were poets some were artists. I think they all live their values throughout their lives. Yeah, some spent time in communities, some wanted to live more independently. But there, were, it was one awesome. I mean, that was one of the reasons I was interested making the film because I thought the people were all really had strong character in terms of their lives.

Joan: 嗯，到了這個時候，你知道，他們都相當年老了。自從電影拍攝完成以來，有幾個演員已經去世了。但你知道嗎，我很高興你問這個問題，因爲當我在製作這部電影之前遇到Drop City的人們時，我對他們的生活方式印象深刻。他們在Drop City之後都過着非常有創意的生活。我是說，他們中的一些人在其他小區，其他形式的集體小區中度過了一段時間。但他們都做了一些有趣的事情。Gene Bernowski拍攝了有關環境的電影，至今仍然非常積極地講述環境剝削的故事。他們中的一些人是詩人，一些人是藝術家。我認爲他們一生都活出了自己的價值觀。是的，有些人在小區中度過了一段時間，有些人想要更獨立地生活。但是，他們都是了不起的人。這也是我有興趣拍攝這部電影的原因之一，因爲我覺得這些人在生活中都有着堅定的個性。

Yu: Yeah. Do you think there is, do you think there is any, Do you think there is any like important effect that drop city causes to today’s America’s counterculture if there is still counterculture in America today.

Yu: 是啊。你覺得Drop City對今天的美國反文化有什麼重要影響嗎？如果今天美國還存在反文化的話。

Joan: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a good question. You know, I think drop city per se is, you know. I think a lot of people never heard of Drop City. So it’s one, sort of. point in the history of the counterculture. I think at the time it was very influential to other people who were experimenting with communities, building communities. And so I think it’s a ripple effect. You know, I think drop city helped people see what was what they could do, what was possible, how you could build and live together and and it’s you know, experiment with community. I think in terms of the film, you know, one of the things that I’ve really enjoyable is when I show the film to university age students. How they’re often just really excited by it. You know, they find it like, wow. You know, I want to do this or actually I showed it where some former students of mine were in the audience and and it was really amazing because they had bought a piece of property. And had some old buildings on it and they were you know, they wanted they wanted to rebuild this and have a kind of collective living situation. And they were telling me, oh, just, you know, today we were pulling nails out of old boards, you know, which is how. The droppers were. You know, collecting old pieces of wood, pulling the old nails out and then using that to build. So. You know, I think the story has a lot to offer to people in terms of just different ways to think about how how we live. And I think historically, yeah, it’s part of an important continuum of ideas, you know, that hopefully are still alive. I think so. You know, and yeah.

Joan: 是的。是的，這是一個好問題。我認爲Drop City本身就是一個很好的問題。我想很多人都沒聽過Drop City。所以它是反文化歷史中的一個點。我認爲在當時，它對其他正在嘗試建立小區的人有很大的影響力。所以我認爲它產生了漣漪效應。你知道，Drop City幫助人們看到了他們可以做什麼，看到了可能性，看到了如何建立和共同生活，以及對小區進行實驗。就電影而言，你知道，我最喜歡的一件事就是向大學生展示這部電影。他們通常對此感到非常興奮。他們覺得這太棒了。你知道，我想做這個，或者實際上我在觀衆中有一些以前的學生，他們買了一塊地，上面有一些建築物，他們想要重建它，建立一種集體生活的環境，這真是太棒了。 他們告訴我，噢，就是，你知道，今天我們正在從舊木板上拔釘子，你知道，這就是那些Dropper在做的事情。你知道，他們收集舊木材，拔出舊釘子，然後用它們來建造。所以，你知道，我認爲這個故事對人們在思考我們如何生活的不同方式方面有很多啓示。我認爲從歷史上看，它是一個重要的思想連續體的一部分，你知道，希望這些思想仍然存在。我想是的。你知道，對吧。

Ray: I’m just wondering what do you think about in the connection between the drop city and their modern cyber community.

Ray：我也想知道你對Drop City和他們現代網絡社區之間的聯繫有什麼看法。

Joan: Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, I think there are connections. You know, I do think cyber communities are I mean, there’s so many now in terms of hard to kind of encapsulate what a cyber community is at this point, but But I think, you know, the notion that You can develop communities across borders across ages across ideas. You can you can share ideas. You can learn from people. Hmm. You can build a whole you know, new ways of thinking, you know, by in this very accessible way. I think that connects very very closely with the counterculture. Looking for ways to connection was a big part of it. That’s why it’s a community. You know, it was about How do we connect? How do we, you know, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. So as individuals. You know, we have a lot. To offer, of course, but the thinking, I think, behind cyberculture and counterculture is that together there’s a lot more that can be learned or shared or experienced.

Joan: 是的。是的，我想，你知道，我想有一些聯繫。你知道，我確實認爲網絡社區是有的，我是說，現在有這麼多，很難概括出網絡社區到底是什麼，但是我想，你知道，這種觀念是，你可以跨越國界、年齡、思想發展社區。你可以分享想法。你可以向人們學習。嗯，你可以以一種非常容易接觸的方式構建全新的思維方式。我認爲這與反主流文化非常緊密相關。尋找連接的方式是其中的重要部分。這就是爲什麼它是一個社區。你知道，它是關於我們如何連接的。整體大於部分之和。所以作爲個體，我們當然有很多可以提供的。但是我認爲，網絡文化和反主流文化背後的思維是，通過共同努力，可以學到更多、分享更多、體驗更多。

Yu: I think that is all of our question and oh yes, can you like because we should we should let you do it in the beginning can you do a brief introduction of yourself like maybe can you do a brief introduction of yourself like maybe when we yeah maybe when we use the a video like we can show audiences.

Yu: 我想這就是我們所有的問題了，對了，你可以做一個簡短的自我介紹嗎？就像當我們使用視頻時，可以向觀衆展示一下。

Joan: Okay. My name is Joan Grossman. I live in Brooklyn, New York. I work in, I’m a filmmaker and produce and direct and I do all kinds of projects with video that, include everything from filmmaking to video with live performance, video installation works. I’m very interested and I teach. And I’m very interested in how storytelling and how media can kind of enhance our understanding of our world and our what we can do in our world.

Joan: 好的。我叫Joan Grossman。我住在紐約的布魯克林區。我是一名電影製片人，從事製作和導演工作，還涉及各種與視頻相關的項目，包括電影製作、現場表演視頻和視頻裝置作品等。我非常感興趣，並且我也教授這方面的知識。我對故事講述和媒體如何增強我們對世界的理解以及我們在世界上能做些什麼非常感興趣。

Yu: Okay, okay, cool. And I think That’s all.

Yu: 好的，好的，很酷。我想那就是全部了。